V I R N E T U S A T h e F a c t s As I Know Them First Hand From A Virnet Hierarchy By Michael Paris. C.R.I.S (Computer Research & Information Service) 04/29/94 Part #1 Ethics ---------------- First I must say that it pains me to write this. I have had nothing but respect for virnet and the people I have know in it. But with certain info I have become aware of I feel it is my duty as a part of the human race to make these facts known. I will separate this info into two parts, The first being the morality of virnet hierarchies and the second in being facts on their hidden background checks they have done on some of their members. To start with I have turned in my node address for virnet for the reasons you will see in this open letter, I do not care to continue to receive the virnet echo anymore and feel that there is some things you should be made aware of. 1. A quick look through the virnet nodelist will tell you that there are many people connected to this echo. Why? (Not sure to tell you the truth). It seems that for the topic of viruses there is not much said. I have wasted space on my drive and time polling and sorting through the mail for a few announcements of files and welcomes, no real info, just some meaningless messages on percentages of echo feeds etc. This has changed a bit here in the US when they added the "movies" echo, but this is not what I was looking for, if I wanted to talk about movies I would get it from fido or usenet mail. 2. The hierarchies of the net seem not to know much about viruses. I will say that the people I have talked to do not even know what a virus is! (no fun here) this is true. Log on to your favorite virnet hub or node (even the hierarchies systems) ask them what polymorphic, spawning, stealth, etc, is and they will not know. (this of course is not all systems, but I will guarantee that it is the most of them, and definitely the hierarchies in virnet). 3. Lies, deceit, and morals. It seems that from the people I have talked to they are no different from the people they talk against. Most people know about their friend John, This man was accused of being vulgar to the extremes, he is shunned for speaking very obscene about female members of virnet, as well as his aditude that just shows he is unbalanced in the mind. Well it seems I have found the same here in the virnet hierarchies, talking to the people I have made me sick to my stomach and reminded me of the talks I had with such unbalanced people as I did before. It made me sick to see the hate expressed and the way it came out. Talking compleatly about another topic would always bring us back to the slander and foul language I did not want to take part in. As for the lies and deceit we will get into that a bit more in this letter. But as I have witnessed the hierarchies would tell me one thing (I know was truth) and cover the facts to the person it was about to avoid public embarrassment. Below you will find an actual conversation between me and A person in the virnet hierarchy. THIS IS -NOT- A NODE OR HUB speaking for virnet, it is someone in the hierarchy of virnet in a decision making level! [Narrator] The names were taken out to protect the guilty! This starts where this virnet hierarchy is talking about tring to totaly get rid of an ex-virnet member that was found out to be a nuke member getting the virnet echos. It makes me think why all the bull shit seeing there is nothing really in the net to protect in the first place but here is goes. [Virnet Hierarchy] "and now all we need to do is get rid of ahh, [nukemember], or I don't know I guess i'm gona have to get a few good minds together and create some kind of document to finally put this to a final statement ehhm" [Cris Staff Member] "well the biggest thing she has right know but she does not have any proof of," [Virnet Hierarchy] "Uh hu" [Cris Staff Member] "is when you told here about the credit and legal check that was done on her, She does not have any proof of it but" [Narrator] Cris Staff Member was interrupted [Virnet Hierarchy] "I told her my dick was twelve inches long she didn't talk about that!" [Cris Staff Member] "I don't think that would matter much" [Virnet Hierarchy] "why wouldn't that, ya she's so fat it wouldn't even phase her, 320 lbs. this girl is, I'd have to have a dick that was like god damm A baseball bat." [Cris Staff Member] "ok we won't get into that" [Narrator] So the Cris Staff Member does not want to hear this garbage, Mr. Virnet hierarchy goes on to talk about a previous Virnet hierarchy that he was told was just as bad as this nuke member, because he was told that virnet messages or files were being passed to the virus groups through that person. Then he admits here and many other times in this talk that he would rather join Crisnet and leave virnet. It might seem like a great prize to get someone with this position into Cris but, we take pride in having 'honest' and 'sincere' non slandering people in Cris. Every person I have talked to on this matter that knows him has got the same impression of him and it would not help Cris in the long run. He offered to bring more then half of virnet with him into Cris, but again it would not be worth it in the long run. (one bad apple theory) [Virnet Hierarchy] "I heard that [old virnet hierarchy] was filtering virnet stuff to nukenet." [Cris Staff Member] "ya," [Virnet Hierarchy] "so now, you know, I mean, what's true, what's false, that's why I would rather then there being such distinct lines I would rather go in the middle with someone like you." "what I would love to do is leave my wife, turn out to be just, a bum, and so I can go, and knock some sense into all of these that are sitting back causing heck, AND PUT A COUPLE BULLETS IN THEIR BRAINS! MAKE THEM SUFFER FIRST THOUGH! Because this is just to much bullshit! Did you read the initial letter I wrote to [NukeMember]?" "I've just been praying for someone to come over here or call, I put my number out there, I am praying for all of these TUFF, BAD, LILY WHITE MOTHER FUCKERS TO COME OVER HERE!" "I would LOVE, to see them come over here!" [Narrator] Some time passed by and they get on the topic of that nuke member again, The Virnet Hierarchy thinks that the Cris staff member is going to spill the beans and will not fully admit to him about a certain matter. So he continues... [Virnet Hierarchy] "how do i tell you that this is a virnet policy situation among hosts, consequently, it would be against policy for me to go taking things any further with anyone but a host or higher, how does that sound?" [Cris Staff Member] "ok, last time when we talked you had shared with me that you had resources available and that you HAD done a background and legal check on [nukemember]" [Virnet Hierarchy] "It really doesn't matt...ok number one it really does not effect Cris Admin, ok, it really doesn't matter what we are doing! If I was getting ready to get on a plane to fly out there and blow here brains out does it matter?" [Cris Staff Member] "that would" [Virnet Hierarchy] "would you tell her?" [Cris Staff Member] "ya" [Virnet Hierarchy] "so with that in mind, why should I say anything? your showing partiality to her!" [Cris Staff Member] "A persons life is a whole other story, for someone to fly out to blow someone's brains out, that person would be short in the head or something, so that is a whole different scenario" [Virnet Hierarchy] "Well she needs somebody to, [pause] she needs to sit in jail and have some BIG BLACK WOMAN, [pause] STICK A BROOM HANDLE UP HER CUNT!" [pause] "and hopefully the broom handle will have slivers, maybe it will excite her! BIG FAT GREASY BITCH!" [Narrator] This is all going to far at this point, the slander against someone he hardly knows and his vulgar tongue is working overtime, now he goes on to defend the issue of looking into peoples personal background. (meaning credit and legal checks) [Virnet Hierarchy] "Does it matter if I said I was going to hire an investigator to do checks on every person in virnet?" [Cris Staff Member] "well, you should not have told her though, you should have never said anything to her" [Virnet Hierarchy] "it's right in the papers, that four people, BEFORE SHE JOINED, THAT DIRTY UGLY SLUT SHOULD LEARN HOW TO READ! its right in the papers that four people will have access to your information, the REC, the applications coordinator, Mr. Michael Larson, and she put up such a bitch about him having information on her, and if need be, and INVESTIGATOR! [pause] IT SAY'S THAT IN THE PAPER WORK!" [Cris Staff Member] "hum" [Virnet Hierarchy] "what ever she does in life, if she gets stopped for a traffic violation, the whores going to get stopped and checked for everything that she's ever done!" [Narrator] This goes on, and there is much more slander about named virus writers, virus writers in general, groups, etc. But this is here so you can understand why I feel that virnet has it's problems and I want no part in it. Part #2 Virnet Background Checks --------------------------------- Next lets touch the area of background checks. Did you know that this [Virnet Hierarchy] believes that they (if they feel the need) believe they can check you out in ANY WAY they want? This includes LEGAL, CREDIT, PERSONAL, ETC... this virnet hierarchy told me that it has always been done this way. People did not know it, but the previous hierarchies did this as well. THIS WAS TOLD ME BY THIS VIRNET HIERARCHY! They feel that the words in the application that you fill out where it says about your info on the application, that "if need be, and investigator" will see it, means that they can find a private investigator or friend of their's to look into your LEGAL and PERSONAL background and DIG UP any info they can find on you! This hierarchy feels that there is no forgiveness or excuses for mistakes, if you have a bad credit background it shows you are "unstable" and not fit for the net! If you were an X-Convict and paid your debt to society, you will do it again and could be a bad egg in the net, so you should not be allowed in the net! [Narrator] So what we will see here is where the common fact of him telling me that he had someone do these checks on this virnet node is not disputed, but rather EVERY TIME I bring it up he changes the subject until it comes to the point where after hours I confront him and corner him on the issue and he spills the beans. [Cris Staff Member] "I guess the main thing she was talking about was the virnet checks, you know that they checked into her credit" [Narrator] ---> Interrupted by Virnet Hierarchy and changes the topic. [Virnet Hierarchy] "I will not divulge information on my life, whether I am getting along with my wife or not, or whether my penis is shriveled up or not.." [Narrator] So he goes on and on to keep away from the issue. [Cris staff Member] "Well you did do a check on her right? " [Virnet Hierarchy] "huh?" [Cris Staff Member] "I remember you telling me about this" [Narrator] ----> Interrupted again and changes the topic. [Virnet Hierarchy] "Hold on a minute I am reading a letter" [Narrator] ----> after a few minutes of reading he never comes back to answer. [Cris Staff Member] "well the biggest thing she has right know but she does not have any proof of," [Virnet Hierarchy] "Uh hu" [Cris Staff Member] "is when you told here about the credit and legal check that was done on her, She does not have any proof of it but" [Narrator] Cris Staff Member interrupted [Virnet Hierarchy] "I told her my dick was twelve inches long she didn't talk about that!" [Cris Staff Member] "I don't think that would matter much" [Virnet Hierarchy] "why wouldn't that, ya she's so fat it wouldn't even phase her, 320 lbs. this girl is, I'd have to have a dick that was like god damm A baseball bat." [Narrator] So we see once again he changes the topic! [Cris staff Member] "Well the main thing she's got is the fact of the legal and background checks, but she does not have any proof at all, there is nothing in writing that she can pull up, just that one instance of you informing her that it was done on her." [Narrator] Again this goes on, no comment on what was said, just A change of topic. This goes on many times, at least 12 other times where he evades the issue until he is cornered on it! [Virnet Hierarchy] "Does it matter if I said I was going to hire an investigator to do checks on every person in virnet?" [Cris Staff Member] "well, you should not have told here though, you should have never said anything to her" [Virnet Hierarchy] "it's right in the papers, that four people, BEFORE SHE JOINED, THAT DIRTY UGLY SLUT SHOULD LEARN HOW TO READ! its right in the papers that four people will have access to your information, the REC, the applications coordinator, Mr. Michael Larson, and she put up such a bitch about him having information on her, and if need be, and INVESTIGATOR! [pause] IT SAY'S THAT IN THE PAPER WORK!" [Cris Staff Member] "hum" [Virnet Hierarchy] "what ever she does in life, if she gets stopped for a traffic violation, the whores going to get stopped and checked for everything that she's ever done! [Cris Staff Member] "I have to be honest with you here ... I see mail nets as a hobby, I would not want a net to be looking into my legal and credit information. I am sure you feel the same way!" [Virnet Hierarchy] "Your ABSOLUTELY wrong!" [Cris Staff Member] "Tell me why I am wrong" [Virnet Hierarchy] "Everything we do in life, everything we do we get checked! When you go for a job, you get checked, you sign a paper, maybe you haven't but I have signed many of papers that said [changes idea] No matter what you do, if you drive, no matter what you do in life, driving can be a hobby, but your going to get checked! " "Let me give you a beautiful example, she better not ever go to LA. california, they send police officers on the street, and they just stop people at will, and they run a check on them!" [Cris Staff Member] "But we are talking about a net here, ok you feel this way because it's an anti-virus net or if it was any net?" [Virnet Hierarchy] "ANY NET! A N Y N E T!, when you join an organization they have every right to check up on you because you are becoming part of a team. and maybe there is someone that don't want as part of that team." [Cris Staff Member] "Well I know there is allot of people that may have claimed a bankruptcy in their past, or maybe they are an x-convict, they spent time for a certain crime, but they paid their dept to society. So if that shows up they are going to be kicked out of the net? What virnet does it it's own business, I don't want to argue, but" [interrupted] [Virnet Hierarchy] "She was offered to resign! did she resign? she makes it look like she quit the virnet! in fact all hells going to break loose when I resign, I'm going to resign. Everybody's going down!" [Narrator] This still goes on quite a bit, talking about many different topics such as law, how you should not make mistakes and if you do you should go to jail for them, how viruses should be against the law and people that write them should be locked up, many virus writers are mentioned and slandered, but then on the topic of prostitutes, they are ok! and other law breakers are not as bad as virus writers. I told him that I resign my node number for virnet, and he asked me to please wait until this all blows over, but I could not wait for this all to come out in the open, so I just left my node number with him. Also I have a number of hole cards ready to come out on Mr. Virnet Hierarchy in case the same kind of slander comes this way. Here is A post that also shows support in this issue: * Original Area:NETMAIL * Original From: David Schepper (1:114/150) * Original To : Pam Trexler (1:15/20) > I would be interested to know how this turns out for > you and Steve. Virnet > is a great disappointment to me all the way round. Well, I got a call from Mr. Nuemann (spelling?) last night, and we spent about two hours on the phone, during which time he told me things about you (the same things that you had already told me), and we got into a discussion about having virus writers in the net. I told him that, yes, there should be SOME screening, but that the net would be better served if they had at least SOME opposing information allowed access, but he disagreed. I might have been willing to stay in the net, had he not basically confirmed your statements about background checks. He said that they DO hire Private Investigators to look into the backgrounds of "questionable" people. At that point, I told him that I believed that they had overstepped the bounds of ANY network, and that what they are doing may indeed be illegal. I also told him that my privacy and integrity were MUCH more important to me than ANY net, and could no longer afford to be associated with their net. Anyway, to make a long story short, I am no longer associated with VirNet, and their communistic approach to what is STILL basically a hobby. Dave C.R.I.S (Computer Research & Information Service)